A friend of mine sent me an email a few days ago that really got me thinking.
None of us who attend a church would claim to have found the perfect denomination (or non-denomination) right? I mean, as long as it's made up of the people it's going to have room for growth. So that's where the question starts. Here's what I was asked:So, let me pose that question to you, my reader. Is there any thing you would address?
Or maybe you've found the perfect church.
I'd love to get lots of feedback in the comments, but most of all I want to challenge you to think positively critical. I want to challenge our sense of complacency in church attendance. Think about how you could make your church better. Because that's where it starts.
Or maybe you think we shouldn't ask these kinds of questions. I'd love to hear from you guys too. Let me know why you think what you think.
Peace
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25 comments:
i just wrote a response but it cut me off at 10,000 words. so apparently there's a limit.
A couple of thoughts.
First, the main doctrine that I think we (and this goes far beyond our own denomination) hold to and yet don't know what to do with is without a doubt the Trinity. By and large, church members of all stripes would agree that it is a true doctrine, and yet really don't know where to go after that. Compared to other doctrinal issues (eg atonement, original sin, communion) it gets remarkably short shrift except for in more academic circles.
Second, on the one-page tract idea, I would probably just want to emphasize the fact that the simple (often simplistic) reading of Scripture isn't always the right one. We think far too much of our own abilities to see the truth. More than spreading my own interpretations however, I think encouraging each other to take up the Bible with fear and trembling would be beneficial.
Third, in trying to speak to Daniel's question (on the Facebook post), I have been taking up a special study of the early Church's approach to the Trinity and scripture and how these concepts were interrelated. Beyond simply being interesting, it is helping me to be more humble in how I deal with Scripture, to appreciate a number of interpretations that I would've otherwise denigrated, and to increase my appreciation of the early Church (by which I mean at least up through the second council of Nicea). My plan is to eventually present this study at one of our Church's Wednesday night Bible studies as I believe these benefits could be passed on to the other brethren.
Fourth, and perhaps most important, I agree with Daniel that these types of questions are typically unhelpful. This is not because the topics aren't important, but because we've largely severed the contemplation of God from the life of the Church. As such, even when we agree on an answer to some theological question, it does little to foster the life of the Spirit within us (as Daniel pointed out).
There are undoubtedly specific topics that I might want to argue about here and there (politics, worship, authority, unity, beauty, etc), but if the conversation doesn't have intercourse with the life of the Church (of which I am a part), it is vanity.
There are things I would address, but our denomination is so diverse at this point that what I would address in my congregation may not need addressing at all in another congregation. Or another congregation may have other issues altogether.
Dan Coughlin's comment from facebook:
I don't quite fall in to the "you think we shouldn't ask these kinds of questions," but rather I think that these conversations are often the least productive conversations that we can have.
What I'd rather hear people discuss is: What are you (YOU) doing about the shortcomings of your particular denomination? Sitting around talking about it on... Read More facebook doesn't (in my opinion) count.
My suggestion is to inspire and encourage one another to love and good works instead of hashing and rehashing the problems (my summary of Hebrews 10:24-25).
Dan: I appreciate the call to personal application. Re-reading my post, it's what I was hinting at with my statement - "I want to challenge our sense of complacency in church attendance. Think about how you could make your church better. Because that's where it starts." - I probably could've been more clear on the personal aspect of the question.
I get the sense that people are hesitant to think of the corporate church as a body that's ever evolving to look more and more like what Christ intended. Does that only happen through and individual personal sanctification? I'm not sure. There's definitely an argument to be made that the more the individuals in a church conform to the image of Christ, the more the church will look like the Biblical model. But is that the whole story? Is there a place for the members to collectively put their heads together to encourage each other to grow the church in a certain direction? I think there is.
Nick: I appreciate you taking it there, to the personal outworking of the concern.
Anonymous: Feel free to take it out of the realm of "denominational" and into individual churches if you want.
To me the issue isn't doctrinal or cultural. The issue is that almost every denomination seems to be loaded with Sunday Christians.
Not that we partake in open sin or otherwise get into trouble from Monday through Saturday - it's safe to say that most people you know, whether they call themselves Christian or not, manage to avoid those things.
But if I spend the vast majority of my time and energy in worldly pursuits - whether it's entertainment, financial gain, or even raising a happy and successful family, I don't care what my church's doctrine or culture is ... I am spiritually dead.
And if the vast majority of people in the church are like me, then it's really not even a church - even if God Himself would give an A+ to its doctrinal statement or the exact language used by the pastor in addressing various doctrinal issues.
So if I could pass out a one-page tract like you're asking about, I don't know what I would write - but I know I would not write about weighty doctrinal isues or issues of church culture. Not because I don't think those matter, but because even if I were 100% correct, it would make absolutely no difference to someone whose greatest concern is for their own life - how they're going to entertain or enjoy themselves, how they're going to provide for themselves or their families, or how Jimmy is doing in school.
I have seen countless arguments from people espousing one doctrinal position or another about "why it matters," and I agree in principle even if I disagree on the issue. But understand that for any of those arguments to apply, you have to get to the point where you actually care.
I know this sounds very negative, and I don't intend it that way. I just think the most obvious problem with the church at large is staring us right in the face. We can talk all day about being saved by grace through faith and how that all works, but if we live in a way that suggests we don't really have much faith at all, then it's all academic.
Anonymous with the 10:45AM post:
So how do we get to where you suggest we go? How do get people to where their greatest concern isn't their own life?
What is the Biblical method to go from self-absorbed to God-absorbed?
I'm the anonymous with the 7:59 a.m. post :-)
In my own congregation, I would challenge people to look to the biblical reasons for our traditions and "culture". I support our traditions, but not just following them b/c it's just the way things are done and have always been. I grew up in a congregation where "spiritual issues" were always pushed into a congregation, but often didn't have much spiritual value at all. I know belong to a congregation where most of our conversations when gathering with other believers center around work, farming, (for the men) and babies, , recipes, and housework (for the men). I guess I would like to see a happy medium, or be able to discuss things truly of a spiritual value.
I meant to say, spiritual issues were always pushed into a "conversation", not "congregation"
Good question - I think only God can make that change in us when we individually yield ourselves to Him. But I think we what we can do is get in the way of God's work by giving false comfort to ourselves and others so that we don't realize that something needs to change.
Oh, and the women are the ones talking about recipes and babies, etc. I guess I typed too fast.... sorry :-)
This would be a lot less confusing if the Anonymous's would at least give themselves pseudonyms. :-)
Also, notice you can delete your comment and then repost the edited version. That can help with the flow. Just make sure to copy the text of the comment before you delete it. Then paste it into a new comment and edited it accordingly.
Thanks for the thoughts though.
Anonymous number one: Challenging deeper thought on the traditions is a good thing. Why do you think we struggle with losing the meaning? Is there a deeper issue? Is there a root that is the true cause?
Anonymous number two:
1)How do we get people to "yield" to God? Expound on that. Move it beyond the cliche'.
2)Taking away that false comfort is a small part of what this post is about. What are some other things we can do to challenge our comfort zones?
From Anon. 2:
I guess my point is that we can't "get" people to do something as personal as yielding wholly to God - it's cliche to talk about but unfortunately it's very unusual to actually do.
The false comfort comes from comparing ourselves to ourselves, and potentially blinding each other to the fact that something is greatly lacking. We all want to think that most of our friends and family are abiding in Christ, so we subconsciously adjust our understanding of what that means to fit the people we see around us.
I guess I'm hard-pressed to give you an "action plan" for what to do about this, and frankly I think that most of the things men would come up with would be fatally flawed. But I think a starting point is looking honestly at whether we are collectively or individually living up to our calling, and not just saying "well, we're human" but realizing that God is able and willing to take us where we need to be.
so do we have any biblical examples of doctirne being ignored or not emphasized in order to get to more pragmatic results? does paul ever do this in any of his epistles?
my understanding and experienced has always been correct knowledge and explanation of biblical doctrine is what leads to more than just the "sunday christians". sanctification never comes without an increase in the truth of God and who He is. that's why doctrine and theology matter.
that is all to say, teaching good biblical doctrine will solve the problem of complacency in the church by providing the means by which God uses to sanctify His people.
A few general points to begin with. In thinking of where to improve and what is lacking, my mind immediately arrives at three basic ways to think about a Church and evaluate it. I think some hints in this direction can be gleaned from the letters to the churches in Revelations (though this is not directly derived from those passages)
1. A True Church,
2. A Faithful Church
3. A Vibrant Church
Chances are, ones church will be either only 1, or 1&2, or 1&2&3. And there can be varying degrees.
A church lacking in any of these three areas basically needs to repent, though how that will look will depend on which one of these three areas are lacking.
If your church is not a True Church, then the call is to repent from the sham and embrace biblical Christianity.
If your church is a True Church, but not Faithful or Vibrant, then the call is to repent and return to the foundations.
If your church is True and Faithful, but not Vibrant, then the answer is to repent for being shallowly focused and not allowing the faithfulness of the church to work itself out.
I'd say that most of the visible problems in churches lie in #3, although it usually links back to something within #2, things which are not always so visible.
Being a True Church is not difficult, most of it is probably encapsulated in Acts 2:42-46. But, to be frank, a Church can be a True Church and yet a pathetic mess. So we should generally not focus on whether our church is True, but more on whether it is Faithful and Vibrant. And it would be a travesty to think that we could address the Vibrant question while there are unaddressed issues within being Faithful.
As a member of a true, and largely faithful and vibrant church, I am incredibly blessed.
Doctrinally, I think we are spot on. And we also have a great tradition which is focused on Christ, His Word, His ordinances/sacraments, and worshiping Him in Spirit and in Truth. We have a very warm, friendly, dedicated, and servant-hearted membership. We have a great pastor who is a wholehearted servant of God and preaches the Word faithfully. We're very much a praying church. We've demonstrated a large degree of flexibility and changes for the good. We are fairly rare in that we both serve the Lord's supper and a fellowship lunch every Sunday!!
Most of my concerns lie in the future. I worry that we are not poised enough for the future, and that the future of the eldership in our church may not be enough of a priority in our culture right now. Also, it is always a concern when one sees the numbers dwindling in certain age categories... wondering about where the church will be in 10-15-20 years. A LOT of our activity is carried out by a relatively small group of people.
I think we can also improve in being more dedicated as a body to the regular meetings of our church (prayer meeting, etc.) There is excellent teaching going on and we are generally not running into major doctrinal errors, but then that leads one to question why were are not more zealous, more active in evangelism, growing more in Christ. I think we're believing the right things, but we need to work on letting them sink more deeply into the depths of our beings.
We have demonstrated a great deal of love and unity, but one could wonder whether this lack of apparent conflict might be a manifestation of a little bit of complacency, passivity, and lack of openness?
I would also like to see more ties and relationships being built with other likeminded churches in the area.
I think these things are not altogether rare, they are probably things a lot..if not almost all..churches deal with. I share them mainly so that everyone can see the commonalities. If we set our mind intentionally on being more Faithful, our Vibrancy may not be an absolute foregone conclusion, but it should I think there is a correlation.. true Faithfulness will ultimately lead to Vibrancy.
How much churches nowadays are trying to be Vibrant and making all sorts of programs and coming up with radical ideas, and yet are failing in their faithfulness to the simple things that God has ordained in His Word (like the preaching of the Word, administering of the Lord's supper *regularly*, reading the Word, praying, singing psalms/hymns/spiritual songs, etc.) I rejoice that I am in a church that has recognized the centrality of these basic things!
But we can not rest easy because the enemy Satan is trying to destroy True Churches at every turn! So the sort of positive examination eluded to here is very critical!
~Mark
well said mark.
when it comes to the ac church there are 4 main categories that desperately need change...
1. church government (no plurality of elders at each local church as is the biblical example. uneducated elders and ministers unqualified for office.)
2. church discipline (not practiced biblically. punishes repentant members)
3. legalism (rampant in most congregations and a hallmark of the church as a whole)
4. doctrine (it is just utterly confused, undefined, non-sequitur, and flat out wrong in too many places)
much more could be said on each of those obviously, especially #4 which is the most important, but those are at least the "areas" that need to be changed to get the ac church to be a biblical church.
Here is what I wrote in response:
As I think through different areas that we, as AC's, struggle in, I keep thinking, "But why do we struggle with that particular issue?" Why do we not baptize a convert because of their hairstyle? Why do we struggle to accept God's sovereignty in salvation? Why do we misapply the concept of church discipline? Why do we struggle with faith+_____ for salvation? Why do we struggle to talk about more than our work, weather, babies, and recipes when we're at church?
I keep coming back to this idea of our picture of the God of the Bible. Our culture's attitude toward Biblical knowledge and study. This concept of "a simple faith". A lack of passion for uncovering, unpacking, and understanding what God has revealed about Himself through His word. A contentment with the status-quo, and a frustration for people who challenge that. I read Isaiah 6:1-8, and I want to catch that vision. The vision of who God is. His holiness, His standards, and what that means for me. How that vision brings us to a fuller realization of who we are, and our utter dependence on Him and His sustaining. It shatters our grip on the notion that "our personal righteousness" can somehow satisfy a holy standard. This notion of a Christian living "sinless"...these notions of "failures and shortcomings" to cover our naked sin, and it drives us to worship.
Luke I think you hit it on the head...a faith that grows out of our awe and wonder and God and our love for him in a joyful response to his overwhelming love for us as the basis for all that we are and everything that we do...if we aren't living from that basis and instead are focused on meeting checkpoints our discussing even all these issues (which are spiritual, but largely intellectual theological discussions) the heart is never moved to a place of joyful, loving relationship that longs to serve, submit, and seek out truth in all areas no matter how uncomfortable that may make us personally or the church as a whole as the Spirit works his incredible change drawing us closer to God and his true unity...without that heart given over to the spirit in love, it's hard to move onto anything else.
Luke,
Is it that we struggle with salvation = faith + _____, or is it that we struggle with faith = belief + _______?
The second is a very natural struggle (if that's the right word) for a real student of the Bible. The first is more of a caricature than anything.
I think it's a little simplistic to characterize anyone's doctrinal position as "faith + _____" as if they just plain don't know the Bible.
Most recent anonymous: You're correct in the sense that very few people (hopefully) would say that it's faith+____ that saves.
However, if someone feels that their good works are gaining them extra favor with God, if they feel that their good works are keeping them saved, if they feel like anything other than faith in Christ is necessary for salvation, then they are adding to faith works and that is demeaning true Biblical justification.
I sense that this subtle mindset has crept into our culture. We might say with our lips that it's faith alone that saves, and that good works are just evidences of Christ in us, but in our motives and mindsets we find ourselves doing good works, not solely to bring glory to God, but rather to help ourselves feel a little bit more worthy of the gift of salvation.
Maybe not. Maybe I'm the only one who struggles with that or senses others struggling with that. Or maybe that's not a subtle form of faith+_____. To me it seems to close for comfort.
I think there's something very deep about the example of how Abraham's faith "wrought" with his works and his faith was made perfect by works.
Just like God calls people by his good pleasure but chooses to use us in spreading the gospel, he maintains our faith but he does so in a way that involves our participation. Not because he has to, but because he wants to.
"...he maintains our faith but he does so in a way that involves our participation."
I wouldn't disagree with that statement, but it does raise the following question: Where do we get what it takes to participate?
I think Philippians 2:12-13 answers it very clearly. "So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." [emphasis added]
I think that's the important mindset to keep as we're "working".
To God be the glory.
i agree with luke here. it is a distortion of this very idea of God working in us to cause our participation that has drawn people away from a correct biblical understanding of faith alone justifying us. if our participation is in any way at all credited to us or due to our "free choice", then it is a form of works salvation because it is putting the difference in man and his correct decision to maintain or get faith instead of in the hands of God who has mercy on who He has mercy. however, when it is credited to God working in us because we are never free, then the principle of salvation by grace alone through faith alone is maintained.
also, can you explain the difference you are making between faith and belief (assuming we already agree that faith or belief without works is a dead non-saving faith or belief)?
1. God-who is He? How can we know Him? Why did He put us here? What is His plan for us?
2. Sin-what is it? How does did it (the fall) and how does it affect man (his nature)? What does this mean for me now?
3. Who is man? How do his relationships with other men and with God relate? How does the Great Commission apply to your life? Are you doing it? What drives me? If I say heavenly things do, then what does that mean? Is going to church a couple times a week and to all the church functions the ultimate goal?
Do I have it all figured out? How can I know more about God?
4. God's Word-How did we get the Bible we have now? Are the original texts inerrant and infallible? What does that mean? How do we interpret the Bible? What are the barriers to correct interpretation of it? How do we get around those barriers? What is the Spirit's role in interpretation? What is our role? How serious is the handling of God's Word? What does this mean then? Can I defend God's Word against attacks? Do I really know it, or do I just know some main points that church leaders tell me? What is the gospel? How do I effectively communicate it with others? What about with others who have a different world view? How do I grow in my walk with God? Am I doing what I said it takes to grow?
5. History-Is our faith the one that was delivered to the Apostles? How do we know? What challenges faced the church during the time of the apostles, and afterwards, until now? What heresies were raised? How were they addressed? Is my church the only "church"? How then should it interact with other churches?
6. Missions-What is this? Are we doing ministry or missions? Are we actually doing it? Do we (Westerners) determine what another culture should be like?
7. Discipleship-what is this? Are we doing it? Am I doing it? Is church leadership equipping the saints for the work of the ministry? How so? If not, why not?
8. Church-What is the church? What is the makeup of our church? Where is the growth coming from? Is this right? What barriers are there that would hinder someone from joining this church? If our church disappeared, what would the community say? Would they notice? What is a successful church? What are our strong points? How about our weak ones? Does my church have it all figured out? In what ways could it learn from others?
9. How satisfied are we with our relationship with God? What needs to happen for me to know God more fully? What do I do if I don't desire God? How can I make sure I am not wasting my life? Am I growing in love towards God and others? How does this show?
10. What doctrines are uncompromisable? Which ones allow more room for differences? How should we address this differences? What are the traditions in our church? How do these differ from doctrine? What does this mean, in my life then?
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