In Romans 9, when Paul is speaking very clearly of God's unconditional election of some, and not others, to eternal salvation, a hypothetical objector to this doctrine raises that very question: “If it is as you say, Paul, and God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born, or had done anything good or bad, just so that his own purposes might stand in election, does that not mean he is arbitrary and unjust?” (see Rom. 9:14). Paul's response to this is a resounding, “Of course not! May it never be!” God is not arbitrary or unjust – but he does elect individuals to mercy and hardens others as he sees fit, and for no good will or exertion that he sees in anyone (Rom. 9:15-16). He hardened Pharaoh according to his purpose of displaying his glory in all the earth, and he sovereignly chooses to have mercy on whomever he will, to display the glory of his grace (Rom. 9:17; cf. Rom. 9:22-24). In sum, “Therefore, he has mercy on whom he will and he hardens whom he will” (Rom. 9:18).
We would do well to heed Christ's parable of the workers in the vineyard (Matthew 20:1-16): just because God chooses to have mercy upon some does not make him unjust or arbitrary for giving to others their just deserts. It is his free, undeserved mercy and grace that he holds forth in salvation, and he may do with it as he will. We may not fathom the deep and mysterious ways of God (Rom. 11:33-36); but woe to that one who foolishly says, “I see no reason for why God chooses some and not others, so he must be arbitrary and unjust”. On the contrary, O foolish man, you would do well to say with Job, “Behold, I am of little worth; what shall I answer you? I lay my hand upon my mouth” (Job 40:4).
He Came to a World at War: O King of Nations
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11 comments:
http://www.evangelicalarminians.net/node/286
ah, more anonymous cowardice. romans 9 says what is says; feel free to start believing it anytime.
Traever: Play nice.
Anonymous: Thanks for the good read. There's a lot to chew on in that article.
I take it you left that link because you agree with the authors interpretation?
I appreciated the tone that the author had throughout the article. Obviously, this isn't the place to go through every area I disagreed with his interpretation, but I will say that I think it's interesting that he included (rightly so) footnote "2" at the bottom of the article. It reads: Of course, all this begs the question of whether and how the reprobate are enabled to come to faith in Christ. If they are not, apart from the application of irresistible grace to the elect alone, then the Calvinist position holds, even with the interpretation here presented for Romans 9...
I find it interesting that an issue that has been debated by theologians through the centuries, without clear and unified resolution, is so adamantly proclaimed by some 20-something-year-old "experts". Coming from someone who has walked with the Lord for 45 years - about twice as long as you young men have been alive - I can say that life will teach you that you really don't have all the answers just now and that your interpretation/belief is not necessarily the one and only way to understand Scripture.
Is it really so important to be "right" - as on this interpretation of Romans 9? Does it truly make a difference in your walk with the Lord? I have seen, many times over the years, this type of debate come and go. It's far easier to spend time and energy proving how right we are on individiual issues than it is to be honest about self-examination and godly living. May I ask - How are you doing in your personal prayer time and Bible reading? How are you doing in laying down your life for your wife, as Christ did for the Church? How are you doing with submission to Biblical authority? How are you doing in demonstrating a Christ-like attitude to all you come in contact with? How are you doing in reaching the lost for Christ? These are the things that need examination and attention. Ongoing debate on theological issues often serves as a handy diversion from examining ourselves in the light of the Word. "Romans 9 says what it says" - that is true, but the understanding of what it says is not so perfectly clear to everyone who reads and loves the Bible. There are a lot of other scriptures that clearly "say what they say" as well and are easily understood but not so easily followed. I suggest you spend your energy on them.
I will remain "cowardly anonymous" as did the other contributor because I have no desire to engage in an ongoing debate about this. However, I felt a need to comment, since I've seen this type of thing come and go with every new generation of Christians that comes along. Don't let Satan's desire to divide the believers entice you into worthless debates and arguments, along with proud, self-determined proclimations of how right your position is. It's a seductive, but ungodly, enticement.
Anonymous: Thanks for the encouragement.
You're right in encouraging us to examine our walks with Christ and our devotion to prayer time, Bible reading, loving our wives, maintaining a Christ like attitude, and evangelism.
I know I have lots of work to do on all those aspects in my life. I'm not even close to the standard Christ set, and I do appreciate those reminders.
I apologize if I've presented myself as an "expert" on these topics. I am not. I did not mean to present myself that way. My desire is to see the Word of God lifted up above all else to the Glory of His name.
I appreciate the Wisdom that God accumulates in a life over 45 years of living with Grace. I strive to maintain a Godly respect towards my elders and learn from them. I know I have a long way to go to perfection, but I try.
I think it's Biblical to expect my elders to strive to not despise the youth in their congregations, but rather to encourage their strong points and lovingly point out their Biblical weak points.
I believe studying the Bible and having a desire to know it deeper and more fully so that God will be honored and glorified both in Truth AND in Love is a positive thing.
In my short 7 years of being a Christian I've observed many believers minimize truth in the name of unity. While I'm not trying to diminish unity at all (the Bible has a lot to say about it), I don't think unity means never challenging each other on beliefs as we read the Word and are taught of the Spirit.
You are right in cautioning us to avoid worthless debates and arguments, but I don't feel like the debate on how we come to salvation is a worthless one. I know I definitely don't have all the answers to Scriptural questions, and I don't believe I've got it "all figured out", but I DO believe there is something to figure out. I do believe there is one meaning for Scripture. I don't believe it can mean one thing to you and one thing to me. I believe there is "A" meaning, and that there is Godly benefit in striving to understand that meaning.
It's my prayer that we can discuss these issues in love and respect one for another always remembering that we are brothers in Christ and esteeming others above ourselves.
I guess, in a nutshell, I truly appreciate the call to Godly living, and I don't think it needs to conflict with discussions on the Word. We can have both.
In love.
Anonymous, there's a cop-out I haven’t heard before - I’m older so I know better. Now obviously I know the biblical teaching about elders and those I look to for teaching have been Christians for as long, if not longer than you. I can find plenty of older Christian brothers that disagree with you, so we need not act like you have a trump card with your age.
The reason I used “cowardice” is because of your desire to make claims or direct to teaching without using a name or being accountable. The fact that this debate has come and gone over the years bears no witness to the truth of one side over the other or that it should not be discussed. It is a debate that came up in the early church and will remain until Christ’s return I am sure. The fact that you raise the question why does this matter causes me to seriously doubt the depth of your understanding of scripture. I realize that is not a light charge, but for someone who has been a Christian for 45 to not know why it is important if God saves us or if we decide to be saved on our own…I hardly know how to respond. Why would we ever need to know something as petty as how God’s plan of salvation works? How silly of me to think that is an important truth to defend with scripture. I can give you a long list of debates against the truth of God’s word that have been around for centuries like the deity of Christ, the Trinity, Protestant vs. Catholic. None of these should be dropped or not taught rightly simply because people have distorted or denied the truth.
Our defending of scripture has nothing to do with pride, or desire to be proven right. You can make that accusation all day but there is really nothing to back it up. Seeing as how you know our ages I’m guessing you are from the central Illinois area. Feel free to email me or call me since you are concerned about my spiritual walk. I would have no hesitation in talking to an older brother and gleaning whatever wisdom I could from it. No need to be shy about what you believe…
Traever7@yahoo.com
309-229-6334
Luke,
I enjoy your blogs and following the other bloggers you like to read. I am very challenged by what I read. I enjoy the comments and dialogs that often follow. However, I will agree with "anonymous" that this issue often brings about arguments and it shouldn't. I am not a Calvinist - I used to be - I figured it didn't matter what I did or didn't do, God was going to save me if He wanted to. That was NOT a way to live a sanctified life. If you follow the mainline denominations that believe this, you will find a lot of Christians who blaspheme the name of God and the Holy Spirit by the same attitude I had. However, I'm not an Arminian either, because I can't take God out of it and rely solely on me - that goes against Ephesians. The Bible challenges us in so many ways and I, too, have decided to "worry" about what I do day-to-day that glorifies God or, unfortunately, blasphemes God. To argue these points and others, like predestination, is a waste of my time and energy in serving my Father. However, I want you to continue to challenge us, even when responses can get "ugly." I will sign my name and you will know I am of the "middle" group. However, to Traever, you use this name and I have no idea who you are, so does it matter if we sign with a name or anonymously?
Dawn Moser - from southern Iowa - Garden Grove to be exact. We actually have an AC church here and would love some of the younger generation to visit now and then. Yes, Luke, you have been here. Thank you and God bless each of you.
Dawn:
Thanks for the comment! I appreciate your spirit, and I see where you're coming from. You might find this talk by John MacArthur worthwhile. I know I really appreciated it.
I know the link is long, but you can copy/paste it into your browser.
http://www.oneplace.com/common/player/oneplace/CustomPlayer.asp?bcd=2/12/2009&url=mms://wm.salemweb.net/a3186/o29/oneplace/wm/gt/gt20090212.wma&MinTitle=Grace+to+You&MinURL=http://www.oneplace.comhttp://www.oneplace.com/ministries/grace_to_you/&MinArchives=http://www.oneplace.comhttp://www.oneplace.com/ministries/grace_to_you/archives.asp&Refresh=&AdsCategory=MINISTRY.GT&Show_ID=8
my name is traever if that's what you are asking dawn. but to say that calvinists think “you can do whatever you want because God will save you anyways” is simply to be ignorant of what calvinists actually believe. a person not living a sanctified life is doing nothing more than revealing the true nature of their heart as unregenerate. it sounds like what you are talking about as arminianism is actually pelagianism or semi-pelagianism. my guess would be that if your theology is not calvinist it would be pretty firmly arminian, even if you do not use the term. but these labels don't really matter that much. obviously what matters is what the bible teaches. one of these theologies is correct and i believe calvinism is the one that addresses the whole of scripture in the most honest and clear manner.
as far as not discussing it just because there is a debate and it is a waste of time, would you use the same argumentation with abortion? how about the deity of Christ? if a jehovah's witness comes to your door saying that Jesus was not God will you just not correct them because there is a debate about it? how about mormons? is every debate just a waste of time?
what "mainline denominations" are there that are calvinist but have people blaspheming God? the denominations i know of like presbyterians and reformed baptist are full of God-loving christians who hold a very high view of scripture and God's sovereignty. i just really question that claim because i have not seen anything like it. could you give any examples? none of them teach that a sanctified life is not important of evidence of a walk with Christ.
knowing good doctrine is not a waste of time. learning Calvinism has deepened my walk with God and led to more personal holiness. that’s what happens when you grow closer to God and come to know Him better.
again, feel free to contact me if you want to talk any further.
traever7@yahoo.com
229-6334
i just realized what you were trying to say with the name thing. usually the people commenting know us or know of us and live in the area so that's why these anonymous comments can be so annoying. they want to just put stuff out there with no accountability or hopes of dialogue. at least with you i know who i'm talking to.
hello? dawn? anonymous? anyone? i guess simple facts can be hard to refute...
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