Here's something to think about over the weekend (or whenever you end up reading this). It's something I've been mulling over lately, and I can't say I've come up with a good answer.Ok, God is totally sovereign right? He is completely powerful and so far above us that there is no way for us to comprehend. We are as worms. We are wretched and filthy before Him. So, can we do any good thing on our own or of our own power/will?
One of the first things that came to my mind was this: Well, we have to surrender our will to Him in repentance and confession of His name. We have to allow Him to have control of our lives. We have to believe in Him.
But then I thought, can we even do that without some sort of un-merited favor from Christ first? Would any of us be able to repent without God first granting us a measure of faith to take that step of confession? Would any of us be able to surrender our will without God first granting us the grace to do so?
I would say that we couldn't. I don't think anyone could come to God in humility on His own without God first granting him grace and faith.
Then the question is: So what is our part in it? What do we have to do? Well, the scripture says we must believe to be saved, but can we believe without God first placing faith within us?
We are saved by grace through faith, and not by works lest any man should boast...
I know it is extremely humbling for me to think about this. I have done nothing to deserve the salvation I have.
I don't understand God.
I don't understand how He works through my free will to accomplish His purposes.
I don't understand how I have the choice to serve Him, yet I could never make the right decision without His grace.
But I do Praise Him for His mighty Power, for His infinite righteousness, for His glorious holiness, and for His perfect justice.
I know that the unsaved don't have to worry about whether they're one of God's chosen(Matthew 22:14). They just have to answer the call, repent, and then praise God for His mercies and grace which brought them to that point.
I hope my discussion here wasn't too hard to follow. Monologues are hard to write sometimes. :)
I would really love your input on this. I think I may even allow anonymous comments on this post. Just to see if I get anyone new. :)
God bless
17 comments:
Ah, you just invited the entire Calvinism/Armenianism debate to take place right on your blog! Brave man, especially since you seem to side w/ Calvin. :) Not a popular thing to do in our community.
Disclaimer before I start: I love our denomination. I respect our leadership. I don't want to insinuate for an instant that I think they have an easy charge. But I also believe that sanctification doesn't just apply to the individual, but also to the church as a whole. We should constantly be striving to become a purer bride.
You're right. I did open up the Calvinism debate. I believe with verses like the following it's hard to deny and wrong to gloss over the fact that predestination plays into Christianity.
Ro 8:29 -
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Ro 8:30 -
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Eph 1:5 -
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 -
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
I think our denomination tends to gloss over predestination under the auspices of keeping our members from becoming lackadaisical Christians. And while I think that end is a worthy goal, I don't think it justifies the means.
I believe that if emphasis is truly given to all of scripture it will balance itself out perfectly.
Predestination is balanced perfectly by the concept that we are to serve God with our works out of a humble thankfullness for what He has done for us and in us. Not of ANYTHING that we have done, but it is only through His mercy that we are saved, and it is only through His grace that we are kept.
Jude 1:24 - Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1Pe 1:5 - Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
I believe the risk we are running by glossing over predestination is that we will be a congregation that does it's good works, not through love and worship, but through fear that we need them in order to have approval and be fit for His kingdom.
My understand of works is that they are one piece of evidence, among many, that assure you you have Christ. They are by no means a way to get Christ's approval or win His love.
So, there's the beginning Morgan. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this matter. :)
Hey, in regards to the pictures below this post, can I come over and have a peanutbutter cup?
Or two, or three?
wow...Taryn...*shakes head*
Yes, you can come over whenever you'd like. Last night the Queenwood girls were over and they enjoyed the Peanut Butter cups to the fullest.
Here we go. I'll see if I make any sense. Whenever I think about the infamous word predestination, I think of those who profess to be Christians yet their lifestyles speak otherwise. They abuse the Blood. Yet they are saved by grace. Now this may be like the worst generalization in the world. I don't think I'm the only one who has just written off predestination. We may say....well I don't understand it. Search it out. I know I am going to. I have been taught my whole life that we are nothing as Luke plainly stated. Yet we must make the decision to come to Him, BUT even the first conviction was not our own. Was it not God given? Did God not implant that knowledge of the right step to take? I am no expert. I honestly have not studied this alot, but i do know that it is something that must be addressed. I really believe God has given us everything we need. So I guess I am rambling. But, this post has made me aware and "convicted" me to search out this issue. I will be watching to learn more. Thanks to everyone who is going to post. Your input will help.
good topic...but I am more concerned, right now, with the peanut butter cups..."i thought they were mine??"
:)
well I guess I can share since luke has so graciously opened up his new home to me! what a blessing!! :D
Ah, Luke, good post. You have brought up a good subject. The seemingly stark conflict between God's sovereignty and human freedom. Oh, we can be happy that "peanut butter cups" have provided a bit of culinary "buffer" to reduce some of the tension. LOL!
The answer to "can we even do that without some sort of un-merited favor from Christ first?" is "no", as you have correctly suggested. People like to talk about Grace as God's part and Faith/Repentance as our part. However nice that may sound, you just don't find the Bible talking about faith and repentence in that way. It speaks about both of those things as something that God gives or grants.
"So what is our part in it?". I think its good to think about it this way: All the work that God does (and it is He that does it) is done within us. So when we say that Salvation is 'all of God' we are not saying that He does saves us without cooperation, but rather that the desire for cooperation is in fact part of the saving--a work wrought in our hearts. When I converted, I can't say that may heart was initially any softer than the countless other people that didn't, and I think many people would agree with me here. Many converts would have a hard time finding anything in them that could have inclined or prompted their calling (besides the Decisive intervention of God, of course).
I like to explain the tensions here via something called "Compatablism". This is an idea that suggests that it is indeed possible that man can "freely" choose something (within the constraints of his nature of course--to the extent that a slave can choose to be free) while at the very same time, God is determining that event. A text-book example of this is Joseph and His brothers. By reading that text, we find that Joseph's brothers decided to sin (by trying to kill their brother and selling him into slavery). But later Joseph comments on that by saying, YOU meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. So, here we see the interaction of two different acts of "will" (one by God, and the other by man) being manifested in one happening. Likewise, we could come up with other examples of this (ie. Judas' intent vs. God's intent in the betrayal, the Assyrians simultaneously sinning by attacking Israel, but yet being directed by God to do so to punish Israel, etc.). There is room for freedom of man, if we are to understand it properly as subject and constrained by the greater freedom of God. The problem is, when people proudly boast about "free will" they are often not using the term "freedom" in the Biblical sense, but rather are pushing for human autonomy, and importing a philosophical viewpoint that is utterly foreign to what the Biblical authors had in mind.
So, I would say that fallen man's will is free to the extent that (a) a will enslaved to sin can be free, and (b) that God's eternal decrees, ultimately, stand and occur whether man wills contrary or not.
A good book that covers some of these issues briefly in a conversational style is Easy Chair Hard Words by Douglas Wilson. That book portrays an individual questioning and discussing these issues with a minister. Its really creative and addresses this age-old debate in a fresh and insightful way.
"Ah, you just invited the entire Calvinism/Armenianism debate to take place right on your blog! Brave man, especially since you seem to side w/ Calvin. :) Not a popular thing to do in our community"
Yeah, Calvin isn't exactly the most popular guy in the AC. But, it is kind of ironic. If one actually reads John Calvin, they will find he isn't the "monster" he is often portrayed to be. He actually probably is more concerned in his writings about Christian living and holiness than most of our ministers would be. Martin Luther is often looked with more benevolence in our circless than Calvin is, and yet Luther was the one who more emphasized liberty/grace and Luther actually preached far more about Predestination and the Bondage of the Will than Calvin ever did. I guess its easy for someone to knock someone when they haven't even read their writings ;) Some of these people would be shocked if they knew that Calvin warned against teaching the idea of Predestination too much. And, I encourage anyone to read "Golden Booklet of the True Christian Life" and see if you don't find much rich wisdom there.
But alas, the disdain heaped upon Calvin and Calvinism is not helpful. Because it actually distracts from the issue. The issue is not whether something is Calvinism or not. Or whether Calvin taught it or not. The issue is: What does the Word of God say? And if something Calvin said aligns with the Word of God, we should accept it. And if it doesn't, we should reject it. We should never outright reject something just because it was "he" that said it.
If someone asks me, I think I would say: "I do not consider myself a 'Calvinist', because I am most definately NOT a disciple of Calvin, but rather of Jesus. If, because I take account for the liberty and sovereignty of God in my theology, one wishes to label me 'Calvinist', fine--so be it. I would gladly bear much worse labels than that for the sake of what the Bible teaches",
I don't pretend to have this all figured out. To be honest, I'm just a young lad who is trying to think through some of these things and have a consistent, Biblical theology. And, Luke, I'm very encouraged that you are thinking about this and other issues and bringing them out into the open. Praise God!
"Predestination is balanced perfectly by the concept that we are to serve God with our works out of a humble thankfullness for what He has done for us and in us. Not of ANYTHING that we have done, but it is only through His mercy that we are saved, and it is only through His grace that we are kept."
Amen, brother! This is a truly wonderful statement!
Thanks for another thought provoking post.
Mark excellent points.
I admit to agreeing with you on many of your points. I have not thoroughly enough studied this topic, but what I've read so far goes along with what you've said so far.
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You stated: "So, I would say that fallen man's will is free to the extent that (a) a will enslaved to sin can be free, and (b) that God's eternal decrees, ultimately, stand and occur whether man wills contrary or not."
I find this an interesting statement. Specificly (b) in the contexted used that God's Soverine will is the "final say-so". And specificly in relation to decision making (A whole different topic) and how we make decisions like: jobs, missionary work, churches, homes, and spouses.
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Luke:
You said:
"So, can we do any good thing on our own or of our own power/will?"
The first thing that came to my mind was "LOVE"!! Showing God that we love Him back- through obedience, actions, and deeds.
From what I've read in the Bible, and my own personal experiences in life. Love is and can only be a choice shown through actions and deeds BY the "free will" of an individual. No where in the Bible have I yet read that God gives us the ability to love God(himself), in the sense that He gives us grace, mercy, and salvation.
I believe that no one can make someone else love them. Not even God. I don't believe that God can make us love Him through our actions toward Him. For example, God can give us the grace/wisdom to understand the Bible, mercy to forgive us, blessings to see His love for US... etc... but only we can choose to obey His laws and His moral law through our action of obedience, devotion, and submission to Him.
I hope that wasn't too wordy and that you could follow it. I'm not very good at putting my thoughts and feelings in writing. Anyway... ask me to clarify if it was confusing. Or if you just want to tell me I'm full of it. :)
God Bless
Jake,
"if God is all powerful, why couldn't he make us love Him?"
This question implies that God couldn't. But he could. So, I would suggest a better question would be "..why didn't he...?"
If God willed it to be so, He could very well have changed all of mankinds hearts so they would freely love Him. And yet, while that *could* be possible, it is not what God chose to operate. Instead, He chose discerning/discriminate love, both in who He loves and in who loves Him in return..
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
We are not "in Him" because we love Him, but rather we love Him because we are "in Him" (I John 1:25, etc.)
"but He does make it possible for us to choose to". Agreed, He does make it possible when He opens our spiritual eyes and ears.
"And if you don't want to cooperate with His will, sometimes He'll 'twist your arm' a little bit."
Can you provide a Biblical example for that? To be totally honest and frank, I like the Biblical example of Saul's coversion much better than your analogy here. He knocks us on the ground, stops us, changes our direction, and opens our eyes. God didn't spend time trying to "twist Paul's arm a bit".
Just some thoughts..
Just another note... When I say " Instead, He chose discerning/discriminate love, both in who He loves and in who loves Him in return..", I don't mean that God doesn't love all men generally. I am rather refering to the *special* love He has for His children.
Hey Luke,
Good questions, but I have to think that maybe there are some things we were never meant to understand about God. I heard a great analogy today in church about this very thought.
In Joshua 10, Joshua and crew kill 5 kings, hang their bodies from trees and then throw them into caves. Pretty gross and really gruesome. Why does God command that this stuff be done? It's something beyond my comprehension and makes me not understand God. And here's the thought from today that is really cool. When I think back to college days, there were definitely classes that I didn't have a clue what was going on. Just no clue. And I would sit there and think about how the subject made no sense and I couldn't understand anything that the teacher was saying. However, just because I wasn't able to understand the subject, does not mean that it was any less true. I realize that the professor had such a greater understanding of the subject than I did. This is totally how God is - His understanding is so much higher than mine. I guess I look at it like this - I don't think I NEED to understand absolutely everything about God. I don't think I can ever fully understand why He chose to love me, chose to send Jesus for me, or gives me the grace to get through each new day.
So my answer for you is this - God sees so much more of what is going on in this world than you or I could ever imagine. Accept God's gift to you. That's exactly what it is - a gift of salvation that you could never have earned through your own goodness or righteousness.
And a few verses to chew on....
Isaiah 55:8-9...For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
I Corinthians 1:25...the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Jake: I agree that God could have designed it (or could) make us love Him if He wanted to, but, that's not how he designed it, and therefore the thought that He "could if He wanted to" really doesn't apply, and has no effect on the reallity of it all. So why even ask that question. Mark, I like your question that asks. "why didn't he?"
I guess I think about "if I was in God's shoes and had a creation". Then I think about my life and wanting people to love ME. Then I ask myself "why didn't He?" and then "Would I want to? (make people love me)"
And the first thing I think is, "NO". I would never want to MAKE someone love me. That would seem fake to me. There is no satisfaction or comfort in know someone loves you only because you made them. So I guess to answer the question, "why didn't God design it so that He makes us love Him?". I would answer, "Why would He want to?"
Folks, its great to flesh out some of these details and discuss them. And, yes, we know so little. So much of this is a mystery to us. But that shouldn't stop us from trying to ensure that our 0.00000001% knowledge is correct knowledge :)
Paul,
How would you say, then, that "God haters" (literal translation of Rom 1:30) turn into "God lovers"? Do they gradually learn to love God? When does this happen? What prompts this change? I'm not asking what initiates the communication, but rather what prompts a change in response (which may have been negative for decades)? Theologically speaking, the "small" detail as to whether this change is to be attributed to the sinner in and of himself/herself or to God has MAJOR ramifications.
Jake,
Thanks for the clarification. I'd just add that God did not seem to attempt to persaude Saul on the road to Damascus. He stopped Him and gave Him a new direction. God shares an observation on the futility of Saul's previous mission and then gives a number of
commands.
Mark:
"Theologically speaking, the "small" detail as to whether this change is to be attributed to the sinner in and of himself/herself or to God has MAJOR ramifications."
I agree. But I must ask then, do you think that coversion automaticly gives you all the love you'll ever need?
I believe that we do not convert, but rather, we are converted (by God). But the love (actions) is still a choice.
We are continually sanctified, which is being seperated unto Holiness. Perfect love is a characteristic of Holiness. It's growth, do you love God only a same amount as you did when you first gave your life to Christ? Or do you love Him more now than you did then?
If love wasn't a choice, then we wouldn't struggle with church unity. We all are Christians and have the same Holy Spirit in all of us. So if we have the same Spirit and if love is not a choice, but rather, God "makes" us love, then where's the unity? Why is there bitterness, hate, racism? Why does there have to be a commandment to "Love thy neighbor"? Why is there a need for chapters like 1 Cor. 13 (which describes love as an action word)?
If love is not a choice, then why are there Christians (same Holy Spirit) that hate me for being ex-communicated? Why do they gossip about me and hurt me? Give me the cold shoulder? If God "makes" us love, then there would be no room for any of that.
I wish you could have seen my first engagement. I think you may understand what I mean more fully when I say, "Love IS a choice".
And one more quick question. If there is anything in the universe that does NOT deserve love, it is the human race. So why then does God love us? Who is "making" Him love us?
These are just some thoughts that I've had in my life. Feel free to comment however you'd like.
I love you all
God Bless
Hello Paul,
Reflecting on your thoughts..
I don't recall denying that love is a choice. I don't think I would deny that at all. But can you separate choice from nature? What I do deny is the supposition that fallen mankind is able to choose to love God to the extent that is required without some sort of change. Your examples all seem to involve the obvious fact that when God changes our heart, He does not eradicate the flesh, but subdues it. We need to continually mortify it. It is a daily process, and our progressive sanctification will never be complete on "this side of eternity". So love is never perfectly manifested in us.
I think this statement says things pretty well: "The love of the Bible will never be found except in a heart prepared by the Holy Spirit. It is a tender plant, and will never grow except in one soil. You may as well expect grapes on thorns, or figs on thistles, as look for love when the heart is not right. The heart in which love grows is a heart changed, renewed, and transformed by the Holy Spirit. The image and likeness of God, which Adam lost at the fall, has been restored to it, however feeble and imperfect the restoration may appear.
And, yes, even what God gives is sometimes progressively unravelled into our life...
1Th 3:12-13 "And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."
"Make" sounds a little strong, eh? Maybe we do need to ask God for more love to avoid some of those bad attitudes and social problems that you mentioned. If we see even our good choices as a gift of His graciousness, we will do that.
I think the "divide" you perceive between what I say about God's intervention and man's requirement to choose to love may be because I haven't clearly enough explained what I've said about the nature of the interplay between God and man's will (as expressed in the idea of 'compatablism').
"And one more quick question. If there is anything in the universe that does NOT deserve love, it is the human race. So why then does God love us?"
Good question. Regarding God's love for His people, I don't think we will get a specific WHY, though we already have a WHAT. In Deu 7:6-8 provides one reason that DIDN'T contribute to why He loves His people.
"Who is 'making' Him love us?"
Of course, no one. He, of His supreme will and pleasure is capable of freely loving whom He choses. He is not enslaved to anything, not our will nor anything else. He doesn't need to be rescued or redeemed, as He is not fallen.
Thanks for encouraging me to think through this further. Feel free to reply and further clarify things.
In love :)
~Mark
So, since we've been throwing around all these ideas and thoughts. I would like to try to restate what it is your saying in only one statement for clarification.
"The only reason we are able to humbly come to the cross in repentance, is because God has 'given' us the proper motivation that we require to make it an action."
Is that close at all?
God Bless
Paul,
I know this isn't going to directly affirm or deny the summary statement you have provided (your summary is worded in a way in which I don't feel I can use it without providing additional explanations, which would defeat the purpose of a 1 sentence summary), but here are a few thoughts..
1. The reason we are able to humbly come to the cross in repentance, is because it is "granted [us] by the Father" (also translated as "given"). I wouldn't place "motivation" at the core of what I am saying (as it is placed in a primary place in your summary). Obviously motivation has a role, but I believe it flows from a few other things (one being: eyes opened to see a need of a savior. There is no motivation without perception of a need.)
2. The motivation to come to the cross flows from the desires of the Spirit, not the desires of the flesh. The natural man can not understand his need for a saviour, nor will he accept "the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them". So genuine reception of the message of the cross presupposes that something is subduing the natural man, which revolts against the gospel. I wouldn't tend to explain this by saying "God gives us the proper motivation", but rather I'd say that the presence of proper motivation is a fruit of the inward work of God in drawing us to Christ and raising us on the last day.
So, I suggest, in examining my position, that you perceive my view on "motivation" as being that it is a simultaneous fruit of the awakening (and part and parcel of it), rather than a part of the preamble to the awakening. Does this clarify things at all? I hope so. I have had conversations on similar topics, but I've never delved this deeply into this aspect of it, so much of what I write is really just the product of reading my Bible and some contemplation. I haven't necessarily cemented all contours of this in my mind or written it out before.
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