One of my favorite quotes of the day was "Scriptural/Spiritual Knowledge is not necessarily spiritual growth." In order to have growth you must have application to your life. We need to APPLY our knowledge!
Update: I posted these notes last night right before I went to bed, so I didn't take the time to comment on them. There are some slides here that he clarified in his talk which helps them make a lot more sense.
On Page 3 on the slide titled "Two Become One:" the first one is one person plus one person equals one new person. The second one is a half a person plus a half a person equals a whole person. The third one is one complete person plus one complete person join to form two complete people within a binding circle of one Godly marriage.
Also on Page 3 on the slide titled "Types of Relationship Patterns" he clarified what the letters 'A', 'H', and 'M' stood for. The 'A' signifies two people propping each other up. If one falls the other falls. They can't help each other through tough times. They don't have a complete identity in Christ. The 'H' signifies two people who stay too distant during their marriage. They can both stand on their own as long as they're on level ground...and nothing pushes them...but they can't really help the other up if they stumble. The 'M' signifies two people who can stand in Christ by themselves, but yet are inseparable at the base. If one half of the 'M' stumbles the other has sure footing to help lift it up.
On the fourth page on the slide titled "Ambiguity Adds Confusion", the last question is "Who is responsible for making sure that a relationship doesn't get overly close? The guy? The girl?". The answer to that question is, "You are." You are both completely and seperately responsible.
If anyone has any other questions about this handout feel free to either leave a comment or write me an email. I'll do my best to expound/clarify it for you, or I'll find someone who can.
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74 comments:
What I read so far is SO RIGHT ON. I'm going to catch the rest tomorrow morning at work. Thanks for sharing this Luke. You don't know HOW BADLY I need this information right now too. GREAT timing my friend :)
good stuff - I need to digest some of it. I'll be back for conversation later (as a topic like this ALWAYS lends itself to conversation)
Stephanie and Kristi: You're both welcome. You're not the only two who needed teaching like this. It's the general consensus among everyone I've talked to. Most Christian singles have a great desire to keep Godly pure relationships, but yet we often seem to be left to our own on figuring out practical ways to accomplish that. Ted's email is on the end of page 6. If you feel like it maybe you could write him an email and express your gratitude for him sharing this information.
One of the questions I had after hearing the talk was:
At what step is it appropriate to make a commitment to the other person? Should you just get to a comfortable level two and then make a committment before you get to level three, or should you get to a comfortable level three before you commit? Any thoughts? At which level do you have enough information to make a wise God honoring decision regarding marriage to the other person?
You know, Luke, you pose a really good question here: Which level is enough to make a conscious, Godly decision of committment?
Women tend to naturally gravitate toward a level three (at least this woman does lol) only on account that we are emotional creatures and want to feel that closeness, that connectedness, that sense of knowing and being known. It really is a matter of "guarding our hearts" (which, let me tell you, I used to scoff at that ideology until my heart got torn apart. Now I guard it with my life in the name of Jesus EVERYDAY. You just have to.) But we tend to sacrifice our hearts for that "knowing and being known" concept: the attention that we tend to use as a an affirmation of self-worth.
So, I guess the conclusion to my long-winded answer to this particualar question Luke, is this: I think a number two is a good place for two people to be when they decide to date. When they make the decision of marriage (or are SERIOUSLY considering it with one another) is when (I think) it's okay to move to a level three.
Steph: So you're saying, stick with level two until you're engaged (or strongly committed to engagement), then move on?
That's the sense I got from the speaker too.
Here's an FYI you might find interesting. The church I belong to (Apostolic Christian Church of America) doesn't endorse "dating" in the traditional sense of the word. We use Youth Group activities, such as bible studies, bonfires, weekend trips (usually to visit other church's Y.G.'s), singings, game nights, work teams, missions trips, etc, to get to know each other before we get engaged.
Yeah, I dig that practice as well: although it would be more difficult, being that I'm a one-on-one type of person (which is why I so easily slip into a level three without even trying). After having read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye", I totally didn't want to date anymore, rather, meet and fall in love in a group setting so I didn't have to deal with all of the "yuck" that goes along with a dating relationship that might not work out. Our hearts are so fragile, and subject to so much ache: why add to the problem by dating hoardes of people who aren't God's best for you anyway?
I almost wish that were more of an accepted practice at my church. Not that it's frowned upon, but it's not quite "pushed" either.
Oh, and to answer your question, yes, I think a 2 until engagement or serious consideration of engagement/marriage is acceptable, and then moving on from there at the discretion of both parties.
I agree with what Stephane is saying. I also believe that a level 2 is a good place to work towards and plateau out at. Level 3 starts to invoke emotions that are too easily snowballed if the intent of the relationship isn't to develop any further than a friendship.
However, like Stephanie said, I think the real key here is to GUARD YOUR HEART.
T
Steph and Taryn: Thanks for that. It's good to hear some female perspective on it. As a man, I sometimes have a difficult time discerning between level 2 and 3. Can anyone maybe give me a hypothetical conversation which demonstrates the difference between a level 2 convo and a level 3?
Luke:
Your distinction is as simple as it states on that sheet (much more complicated to discern when you're in mid-convo, but I'll try to site some examples nonetheless): Opinions vs. Sharing.
Ex #1: Level 2 conversation:
Debating theological issues, political issues.. basically, "first few date coffeehouse" type conversations. These can even be the conversations that last for hours: really digging in, getting to know each other's stances on important life issues: morals, beliefs, etc; basically getting to the meat and potatoes of who that person is. But NOT ... and why. That's level 3.
Level 3 goes a little something like this:
"When I was younger, my dad acted in x-y-z type of manner toward me, which, effectively scarred me because I see the results of his actions in the way I now react in a-b-c situations". OR Opening ourselves up too early and revealing personal things such as past scars (like I mentioned earlier), intimate details about our families, past relationships, even personal stuff about your relationship with God.
Basically, what happens in situations like this (while at the time, it feels GREAT to have someone know you that well), is that a sense of intimacy develops between the two, oftentimes creating a false sense of security with that person which, in turn, results in deeper talks, more sharing, etc. Before you know it, you've given your heart to someone who might A. not be deserving of it (at least in this stage of the game) or B. might abuse it (might abuse your heart AND the priveledge of knowing your private information and might use it against you when and if the relationship falls apart, or worse: while you're still in the relationship. But that's only if you're wound up with a master manipulater (different conversation entirely) or C. and most importantly, might not be the one you're going to spend the rest of your life with, so then you've wasted your breath, his/her time, your heart on someone who won't be there to actually use this information as a means to nurture you and your relationship with him/her. So once you part ways, a little bit of you goes with him/or her, and it makes it just that much harder when the relationship ends.
Now I'm definitely not saying that this process of distinguishing between the two "levels" is an easy task, because I know that I for one and GUILTY of desiring to know people (especially the men in my life) more intimately than a level two because I want to nurture them, comfort them, be a source of support, etc. But, if I really think about it, that's not my job. That's the job of thier future wives. Not that we can't be supportive and lend an ear as brothers/sisters in christ, but there's an accountability there in ministry and in fellowship that might not be in a one-on-one situation. Is this making any sense?
lol Well I hope this came together to form some sort of a clear respresentation of my thoughts! Sorry for the novel!
Steph: I like your distinction between 2 and 3. "Two is the meat and potatoes of who that person is, but NOT "and why". That's level 3."
That helped the light bulb go off in my head. :)
ibxsat~I box Sat.
Kristi -
Thanks for the props, but they don't go to me, they go to God for opening my eyes and teaching me some very valuable lessons as a result of a really awful situation.
Oh and Luke:
Glad I could help :)
tcrfrjbs - taco-refried-fritter-jobs?
Jumping in at the end of a conversation but I have a few questions to pose.
With all the distinction between level 2 and 3 (how funny would it be if you carried these notes around with you and pulled them out in the middle of a conversation to guage where you were? sorry but that thought popped into my head and I started giggling). Ok where was I. Yes, my question is can level 2 or 3 be attained without romantic feelings - i.e. can you open up to a person in friendship and gain that trust and support that may (and I say may) come with a deeper more honest and open friendship? And then the follow up, is that bad? The reason I ask is that are we supposed to be surface-driven in all our relationships until we have found the "one" and then how do we know they are the "one" unless we venture into the deeper levels?
Not taking a stand either way, but asking questions to make you think.
And discuss . . . . .
Wow. Ok here i go...
I am a person by nature that jsut naturally opens up to people. I just through myself out there and let people know everthing about me. I have zero problem with revealing myself to people.
Is this wrong? I have friends that are girls and I share my heart with them... is this wrong? Should I shut up?? lol
Seriously tough for me to do. This has always been me... I see it as a strength but maybe its a weakness...
i dont know?
I loved this document though Luke. It really has some great stuff.
nice english steve..
I JUST THROW...
through?
cough medicine...
Katie: I think romantic feelings come at different levels for different people. I think it might be one of the bigger distinctions between males and females. But I think, rather than ask about romantic feelings, we should be more concerned with emotional attachment. Like Steph says when you get emotionally attached to someone who is not going to be your spouse, a little part of you goes with them when they leave. That part should've went to your future mate.
Remember, this article is about dealing with the "opposite sex". A person with a healthy social life should have plenty of friends of the same gender with whom to go as deeply as they desire. There they will be safe from the romantic feelings or emotional baggage. If you have an issue that you need to express to friend that's great. That's why we have friendships. But share them with a friend of the same gender, so you don't risk the possible negative consequences.
Steve: I don't think you should shut up...but it might not be a bad idea to switch who you talk to about those deeper issues. I too was convicted about this, and I have purposed in my heart to not share deep matters of my heart with females until I choose the one who I want to be my wife.
Being able to open your heart is not a weakness, but it means you have the responsibility to share wisely.
ha ha just read that and I had to go back a few times to make sure you weren't trying to say something else. hmmm perfect english on blogs - never happen.
I'm interested to know other's repsonse to your questions, steph? luke? kristi?
sorry that last comment was in regards to steve's
Okay, I'm going to dive in on some of these questions:
Katie: Absolutely you can! With members of the same sex, sure! With members of the opposite sex, well, that can get sticky. How often (unless there is Z-E-R-O attraction there) do you think it's possible for plutonic friendships to exist in such a capacity without one falling for the other? This can then create the sticky situation for the "pursued" of: "Oh crap. She likes me. Now how do I treat her?" or vice-versa.
Unless you can say without a shadow of a doubt that you don't have feelings for him, and he doesn't have feelings for you, and that no matter how much you disclose to one another, that the friendship will NEVER go there, then great! But otherwise, what are we risking? Our hearts? The hearts of others? Scary possibilities.
Granted, yes, we have to take chances and risk our hearts sometimes, but it shouldn't have to be THAT painful.
Steve, I am the exact same way. Remember? "Pay no attention to the heart on my Sleeve?" Yeah, here's me, I am an open book! Sure! Go ahead! Read me!" But for the sake of my sanity, I have had to curb that more recently, because I realized that it's not okay for my heart to be out there for just anyone to have a piece of. I'm practicing taking my new plutonic friendships slower than I would probably like to just so they stay in the "healthy" zone. Because when they get too intimate and deep, it can create confusion, a false sense of inter-connectedness and dependence, and hope of something that potentially may never transpire. (But this is a girl's perspective. Guys are wired differently, therefore think about these things completely differently as well. And not to say that ALL girls are this way: I have a girlfriend who sees all of this like a guy does: but then again, she has a TON of guy friends: all who want to be with her. So, all I'm saying is, I tread lightly on the issue of plutonic friendship these days because I dive too. HEAD first and then usually bang my face on the bottom of the pool. Ouch.
Kristi: God gave us quite a bit to think about in the Bible regarding marriage. His desire for us is to dig into that information and pray for the wisdom to apply it correctly as we get to know different people and decide who will be our mate.
I don't see the Biblical evidence of "the one" for me. I think, within the bounds of the Word, there could be many girls I could have wonderful God honoring marriages with.
But that's kind of a whole 'nother topic. :)
) Um, can I just close that last statement up? Thanks. lol Yeah, talk about blogging errors: All OVER the place today on poor Looh-ick's site. Hope there are no English majors lurking around, or I've just effectively given them heart failure with all of my run-on sentences and punctuation errors! lol!
Kristi: Thanks for the compliment then! ;) Oh and: Romantical. LOL!!! LOVE that word!
Steve: hahahaha!!! I was wondering about that!
By the way, as I was writing my last post, it seemed the numbers doubled, so that's why I'm responding right after my last one. lol
Luke: Couldn't agree more. Well said.
Steph: Amen to all that.
I think one of the reasons I had some struggles accepting this teaching is because I ENJOY that emotional attachment to females. I ENJOY the affirmation that they like me. It's selfish. It's not about me and my desire for a relationship, it's about honoring God and striving for Holiness in all I do. God desire is for one man, one woman, for life. If I give take a little part of a female that should've went to her husband...then I've stepped out of bounds.
Ok did I really just loose my entire comment. ARGH
Katie: I'm sorry. :( I just had that happen to me to...my previous comment was a rewrite. I started copying my comments to the clipboard before I hit submit.
Sure! And that's natural! It is selfish, but that. is. natural. For guys it is more purely desiring the affirmation that they are as the author of this article put it, "strong, admired, and heroic". And when a girl desires after a guy, it's her natural inclination to do just that: affirm those qualities within him - because she wants him to desire her back!
In the same way, but a bit more complicated (of course, because we're women and that's just the way it is), usually we too, have selfish motivations (ie: desiring attention, affirmation, etc.) but it boils down even further to desiring AFFECTION, and not just attention - two very distinct and separate things. Which is why this can get so messy. Because while guys think they are just feeding a woman's surface need for attention, he may be stirring up within her a whole different set of emotions that he may not be ready to deal with. And.I.Can't.Stress.That.Point.Enough.
Okay but I'll REALLY get off my soap box now. lol
Kristi: The concept of "soulmate" was discussed by Ted also. The term actually was coined by Plato. He described a concept of each person walking around with an incomplete soul...somewhere there was someone else that completed that perfectly. That suggests that we can't be complete in Christ. Ted shared that if we're not secure in our relationship with Christ and totally dependant on Him and Him alone, then we will struggle in a marriage. Our soul is complete in Christ not marriage.
Okay, since there are like four comments in between mine and the one I was responding to: Luke, this is in response to your last post in response to my last... well... you get it ;)
fynaqij - nevermind.
Attempt #2
Ok this will be short and to the point.
I'm going to respectfully disagree to a point here. I think guy/girl frienships can be both blessings and great if the frienship is centered on Christ, sacrificial in nature (seeking the other's good and not one's own), both parties are honest, both parties are guarding their heart, and expectations are communicated and understood.
Stephanie: that article I linked on your old post talks about frienships with feelings and that they aren't inherently bad, nor should you head for the hills when you have those feelings, instead you should ask yourself what those feelings are based on: self-serving love, or sacrificial love leading to loving another to the place that God desires for them (the greatest of loves)
I think there is a issue we keep dancing around: Expectations - we obviously know that all friendships will not end up in marriage but should we discount all frienships because of that? I don't think so. The problem is that we (both guys and girls) place expectations on frienships, we get so far ahead of ourselves that we can't enjoy the blessing of a frienship with the opposite sex because we are too busy looking for the future mate. I would hate to discount the men put in my life who have been great friends, who have encouraged me, showed me what a servant-leader is, who have cared for me and protected me and honored me, but who might not be my future husband. Do I think that my husband will be glad that I had such amazing men in my life before I met him? I hope so. Will he know that it is by these men that I learned so many things that will make me a better wife? I hope so.
Ok so these are my thoughts, random at best, please feel free to disagree, I'm not trying to tell anyone they are wrong and this issue is so PERSONAL because we all have different things in our lives that affect this area.
Katie: first off..that's not short. ;)
I see what you're saying, and I agree. Guy/Girl friendships can be wonderful. But I also think that you can have all those good things you described without communicating on level three or above with the opposite gender where the risk becomes exponentially greater.
I also agree that too often it is too easy to get "caught up" inexpectations.
Ok, I just had a thought:
How awesome would it be to be able to actually sit around a living room with popcorn and lemonade and actually discuss this topic!!
Uh Luke sorry, I'm NEVER short by other's standards. That was short for me. Sad.
Don't be sorry, I love it!
Steve: "Hi my name is Steve"
Girl: "Hi steve"
Steve:"Wanna talk level five with me?"
Girl: "Sure"
Steve:"Sa-weeeeeeeeet!"
Ok I'm looking at Level 3 and in all honesty I'm not seeing a problem with this level and guy/girl frienships. Now 4 and above I see the frienship moving into relationship (which would hopefully be the transition that all relationships would take - I'm there with you Kristi).
Ok Level 3
1. sharing personal preferences (I like Dr. Pepper better than Coke), beliefs (Christ), concerns (uhhh my restless post), experiences (uhh again just look at my blog)
2. Feelings of closeness significantly increase (as in I care for a person's well being?)
3. Sharing life experiences with the intent to share more of your life with them (I call this getting to know you, getting to know who you are, where you came from, and how God has worked in your life)
4. Opening up - honesty? moving beyond favorite movie?
5. help and support one another (friendship - definition of)
Sorry the above seems catty and I really don't mean it to. I am just a bit frustrated by a formula (I think the speaker said something about that at the beginning of his notes). I do think this is a heart issue and I think it starts with ME (individual) and my security in Christ, my identity in Him, my trust and faith in Him for the future, and my realization of the blessing He puts in my life at this specific moment.
Augh, I'm having a really hard time putting my thoughts into words here, PLEASE do not be offended, I do not mean to offend anyone.
As long as you have a friend who's pad I can crash at, I'm down! lol (Cause I'm not driving 3-ish hours to have a "chat" over popcorn and lemonade just to turn around and drive 3-ish hours and come home) ;)
But indeed, that would be AWESOME! I love a good debate!
Interesting..... Can I open pandora's box for a second? I am the youngest person in my family (immeadiate and one of the youngest in my extended family). I have seen many, many, many people (most of whom are Christians, several of whom are ACs) who have gotten married. They each have different stories. Some "just knew the first time I saw him/her" some of them took years and years of conversing and sharing before they decided to take that step. My point is, it's nice to have a guideline saying "you should ask the girl to marry you when you [fill in the blank with a particular step]" but life is notorious for challenging those guidelines. I'm not saying that you should just go out all willy-nilly and do whatever you please, because we all know that that'll get you hurt and doesn't do much to glorify God, but use those steps as guidelines not rules. You need to be aware when you're stepping on a new step and you should be asking yourself if you want to step on that step with this person and you should be asking yourself, "would I like someone else to be acting this way around my future spouse?" but no one step good for everyone. What I'm trying to say is: let God write your love story. Don't get so up-tight (speaking to myself) that you put Him in a box, nor so loose (also speaking to myself) that you're out of His will. I once heard a minister say, "the road has two ditches, it's not OK to be in either one." Make sense?
Kristi said "CLUTCH"... sa-weeeeeet! I havent said that forever!!!
wanna talk level five?
;)
Ha Ha, Steve would have the notes with him and have the girl sign off on all the levels.
Level 1 - check
Level 2 - check
Level 3 - check
Level 4 - check
Level 5 - check
Great now you get an official "Level 5" t-shirt.
And Julie just put it into perfect words.
This is a good topic. (sorry for the jokes, i needed a breather)
Oooohhhh I like what Julie had to say.
And by the way, looking back over the levels, Level 4 basically having an "understanding" with someone. That's a definition to your relationship. That's what makes it different. It's the "understanding", I think that that clearly points to a relationship that you can't just wander into. You actually need to formally or informally agree that you're both at this level for it to happen.
Katie: I grinned when I saw your plea for non-offense. :) I hope everyone reading this can grow from convo's like this, not be discouraged.
You're totally right. It is a heart issue, and it does start with you and your identity in Christ, but can you be 100% sure of the "other" persons? That's where I see safety in level two. Don't get me wrong. I've been past there with girls before, and it's all turned out fine, but that doesn't mean I should make it my mode of operation. This is definitely a conviction issue. The Word of God doesn't give a special directive on it, and it is up to us to develop our convictions based on Godly principles. I think apathy is where there is even more danger. Not understand why you do what you do or what the Word says about it. Let all that we do be "of faith". If you're not convinced is Godly, then don't do it...why risk it? If you're convinced it's God Honoring according to the word, then move forward.
Julie: I agree to a point, but I also think that you need to be careful to follow the Biblical guidelines. It is easy to get into the "you do you thing and I'll do mine and we'll let each other alone" mentality.
Ok Julie is saying EXACTLY what I want to say but she is using LESS words and saying it oh so better. So from now on you can just picture me saying what Julie says. Yep, Julie will now speak for me.
Katie....I think you should be on at least level 4 before you say that. have you read her blog? ;)
j/k Julie...
Luke: But did you grin when you saw my joke right after Steve's. The two old people are making "funnys" here.
Ok I'm signing off, but I'll be back to read the forthcoming comments.
My final thoughts: I'm ok with guy/girl friendships as long as they are honoring to God and to the other person. I take personal responsibility for my feelings and my expectations and I ask God to order those in a way that guards my heart. I am so blessed by the frienships I have with guys and I've been there (dealing with the feelings that girls struggle with but God was/is good to show me how to love in such a way that I look beyond myself to the other person). Just restating what I've said earlier but a bit more conscise.
Hmmm but I can be at any level with a fellow girl right? What level is sharing a toothbrush?
ahhahahahahahah my word verification is
gewgk - GEEK - that is PERFECT
lot to keep up with here but what does "clutch" mean? Help the sista from Texas out.
Agree..Disagree...whatever. I'm just pumped people where willing to discuss it! I grow so much from this stuff. I believe God is honored when we meditate and discuss how to better honor Him with our lives.
clutch = sweet = cool = rad...ok, so "rad's" a little outdated, whatever.
as the "old guy" here I will say that this has been a great topic "Godwalker" (my new nickname for Luke) I have been single for a loooooong time because I have been working on me. Thats why I really liked the part that says if you havent found your OWN identity then every relationship will basically suffer. I agree with that 100%. When I was your age (i cant.believe.i.just.said.that) I had no desire for healthy relationships. It is awesome for me to see y'all tackling this with God in the forefront.
very "Clutch"
Wow, my boss makes me book him a hotel for the night (work? UGH! lol) and suddenly I'm in the dark.
Okay! *Cracking knuckles* here we go...
I'm reading what everyone is saying here, and I think there is a common theme popping up of personal accountability of one's actions, feelings, intentions, etc.. THAT is great. Totally okay. You want to be able to dig into people. Fellowship is what we're about, right? In fact, I'm going to liken myself to be a female counterpart of Steve: Sensitive, soulful open-book musician, with my heart on my sleeve. "Hello, nice to meet you. Want to go to level five with me? Great!" TOTALLY the same way.
But I'm realizing that I just CAN'T do that all the time! Maybe if Steve and I ever met in person, that would be okay for us, because we're very similar in many respects. (Well, maybe not a FIVE, we can start at a three, okay Steve? lol But I think being awarded the t-shirt would be pretty cool! ;) ALSO there would have to be a mutual understanding there like Katie said. But here's the catch: How do you know? How do you know that that other person, no matter how "honest" you may be with each other in the beginning, may not develop feelings later on?
So, is this an issue so much of holding ourselves accountable to our actions for the sake of guarding our own hearts, or should we concern ourselves not ONLY with that aspect, but maybe even more of the other person's feelings/potential weaknesses, etc. Especially in matters of the heart, (especially with women), you can be almost guaranteed that not everyone is going to be straight forward about how they feel. They may not want to screw up the friendship that has been built, and so they bottle up the feelings they have developed, and the longing only gets worse... it can get REALLY messy. That's all I'm saying. You just. never. know.
I'm not saying don't enjoy plutonic friendships: don't discredit them, or toss them aside, or disregard them as something unattainable, but just... something to be dealt with delicately. Even if it's only for the sake of the other person.
Kristi- Dont rub it in Sister
Oh great, a new word to add to my growing vocabulary of random slang.
Ha ha, Steve you are not "old". If you were some 45 year old hanging out talking with the young 20's on here then you would be old and well freaky.
As the "old gal" (yep, I out-age everyone but Steve -I checked) and I think I out-single steve (and yes I am admitting that here) I will say not only finding but resting in one's identity in Christ is the most important thing here. If you are not completely fulfilled in Christ than any relationship (be it friend, romantic, co-ed, or single gender) will leave you empty and yearning for more.
Ok I'm off for real now. Thanks for the good convo today.
It was CLUTCH. Yep using my new word.
Okay I'm out (for awhile anyway) too. Wish I could do this all night - this has been a great conversation, and I really hope you guys don't think I'm trying to cram everything in my head down your throats, because that really wasn't my intention at all! This is just a subject very near and dear to my heart and I'm going to shut up now and join the ranks of all y'all who steal words and say:
This conversation has been "CLUTCH" "Y'all"! Have a "rad" afternoon!
~Stephanie
Ha Ha! I know. just playin!
Darn you Stephanie you had to go and comment and I was all ready to leave.
With you girl, personal accountability is so important, as is accountability with a same gender friend who knows the mixed gender friendship. Accountability is good all around in fact. And yes you may take a chance with the other person feeling something but you can't control them, the test will come with how you handle that situation and what you do (or don't do) from that point forward. I guess I'm trying to make the point that I can't hold another person responsible for my feelings, for my longings, or for my dishonesty with how I feel. I take that on myself and that is all we can do. I let myself feel things, I let myself expect things, I let myself begin to move past friendship. I do this, not the guy, ME. Not that guys should be purposely doing emotional kamakazi trips on girls hearts - those are NOT GOOD GUYS - but if they say "Hey we're friends" then that is all our hearts are allowed to go to.
Will: Never too late to join! I hope everyone knows that.
That's a whole 'nother great topic!! How our past relationships with people affect how we interact with others now. We kinda touched on it earlier, but it really makes a huge difference I think.
Will:
I would say neither. If you feel like you're deeper into a relationship than you should be, I would talk to the girl about it. Be honest, and let her know what you expect out of the relationship. Then from that point on strive to keep your convo's at a level you're comfortable with.
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay
Heh, I form type H relationships with almost everyone. Oh well.
The questions we need to ask when considering how our actions will affect others are:
1. Would I want this done to me? Romans 13:8-10
2. Could this appear wrong even if it's right? 1 Thessalonians 5:22
3. Will this cause I brother or sister in Christ to struggle spiritually? Romans 14:13-21
WOW. 82 comments.
There are lots of things we can do that will not cause a fellow Chistian to struggle spiritually. Don't confuse "struggle spiritually" with "upsetting their personal preference".
I second Kristi's comment. Yesterday was great! Thanks for the inspiring and stimulating conversation. Love this kind of stuff. And I'm serious Luke: you guys ever want to get together some weekend, and have chats about stuff like this, I would LOVE it. It would be especially interesting because of the difference of our denoms. I'd love to learn more about your church doctrines!
I just couldn't handle that there were sooooo close to 90 comments, but just not quite there.
So instead of thinking "close, but no banana's" I decided to go ahead and make the 90th comment. :)
(Luke--I'm not logging in as me 'cause I'm at work, and, well...)
wow, luke! thanks so much for posting this. interesting stuff. :)
wish i could have been there...ah well, next time hopefully! :)
Thanks, Ted. That was exactly what I wanted to say and didn't know how. :)
And thanks also for the notes. Even though I wasn't there, I appreciated the notes you provided.
Ted: Thanks for that input. I appreciated the thought that it's important for us to realize where we're at in a relationship to keep it from spiraling, and that it's not always wrong to communicate at level 3 as long as both parties are aware and respectful/careful. From what I've seen this topic has been like water on a sponge for our Y.G.
Two people who are opening up emotionally and sharing more AND who are in denial that the relationship is becoming more close can be headed for painful consequences, emotionally, relationally, and spiritually.
EXACTLY!!!
It's hard to behave yourself in a Christ honoring manner if you're not fully aware of the circumstances you're in, isn't it? The first step is to be completely honest with yourself.
I've heard it explained that the "truth" part of the armor of God. "Have your loins girt about with 'truth'"...I'd always assumed that was the "truth of the gospel"...but the "Word" is the sword. So it makes more sense that this "truth" that we're supposed to gird our loins in is just honesty. Both with ourselves and others. If we're not honest/truthful with ourselves, we'll have a very hard time putting on the rest of the armor.
Am I comment 100? WAHOO.
Ok now to the real stuff: Thanks Ted for the clarification and continuation of your points. I agree that ambiguous relationships can lead to trouble and that communication is KEY. And relationships are never neat or easy to understand (even same gender friendships - we are selfish beings filled with sin so all our relationships are going to be hard at times). Thanks for clarifying the closeness issue. I think we all have the same heart in that we don't want these types of relationships to be dishonoring to God and each person has to set their own individual boundaries within a Godly framework. Thanks for adding all this.
Amen Katie! That brings up a wonderfully encouraging point! "..we all have the same heart in that we don't want these types of relationships to be dishonoring to God..."
And how awesome is that really! A bunch of people losely connected over the internet, who are seeking to honor God with their whole heart! We are each such unique people in Christ. That reminds me of another point that was made at College Weekend. How much do we expect the eye to be like the ear, or the nose like the finger? We're all very different and yet striving under the same mastery of the same body in Christ Jesus! Praise God for Christian fellowship!
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